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Experience with pen tablets?
Thread poster: Danielle Crouch
Danielle Crouch
Danielle Crouch  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 16:34
Member (2019)
German to English
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Nov 27, 2020

I have recently started experiencing some minor RSI pain in my hands and wrists and am currently considering several options for more ergonomic input devices, one of which is a pen tablet. Searching the forum brought up a few older posts where people mentioned using a pen tablet as a mouse replacement, but I wanted to bring up the topic again and ask for some specifics. So, my questions are:

1. How many of you out there have tried or regularly use a pen tablet as a mouse replacement
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I have recently started experiencing some minor RSI pain in my hands and wrists and am currently considering several options for more ergonomic input devices, one of which is a pen tablet. Searching the forum brought up a few older posts where people mentioned using a pen tablet as a mouse replacement, but I wanted to bring up the topic again and ask for some specifics. So, my questions are:

1. How many of you out there have tried or regularly use a pen tablet as a mouse replacement/supplement and how useful do you find it when working with a CAT tool? (Sub-question: Is it possible to easily scroll up and down in a CAT tool/web browser using a pen tablet?)

2. What size do you find useful? I'm concerned that many of the pen tablets available will be too large for my desk, since I currently share my desk with my husband and space is limited. But I also don't want to get a product that is too small to be helpful.

3. Any specific model recommendations? Do I need to spend a lot of money on a fancy (read expensive) model or will a super basic (cheaper) model work just as well?

Thanks in advance! Any info or experiences would be helpful, even if it doesn't directly relate to one of the questions.
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Sadek_A
Sadek_A  Identity Verified
Local time: 19:34
English to Arabic
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Why a tablet? Nov 27, 2020

You're looking to replace just the mouse, because of the hand posture, as far as I understood!

Then, why not a stylus touchpad? There is a whole line of them everywhere on the internet.

It should occupy the same space as the mouse-pad, and you will still use your current hardware.

Pick the one you like, in terms of price, size, shape, specs, etc.


Dan Lucas
 
Joakim Braun
Joakim Braun  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 16:34
German to Swedish
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Astropad Nov 27, 2020

A tablet will not solve RSI. If your work is typing, look for a better keyboard.
You should do most things with the keyboard (like scrolling), not with the mouse.
Using shortcuts and automation tools can eliminate a lot of mouse action.
A large separate trackpad could be a good idea.

I've used Astropad with MacOS and an iPad.
The tablet connects wirelessly and becomes a second screen (or mirrored screen).
You use a pen on the tablet as you would a mou
... See more
A tablet will not solve RSI. If your work is typing, look for a better keyboard.
You should do most things with the keyboard (like scrolling), not with the mouse.
Using shortcuts and automation tools can eliminate a lot of mouse action.
A large separate trackpad could be a good idea.

I've used Astropad with MacOS and an iPad.
The tablet connects wirelessly and becomes a second screen (or mirrored screen).
You use a pen on the tablet as you would a mouse pointer or trackpad.
Works great with image editing, but doesn't help with typing.
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Dan Lucas
 
Dan Lucas
Dan Lucas  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:34
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
Countermeasures Nov 27, 2020

Danielle Crouch wrote:
I have recently started experiencing some minor RSI pain in my hands and wrists and am currently considering several options for more ergonomic input devices, one of which is a pen tablet.

It's good that you are looking into doing something about this. I urge you not to assume that this will clear up of its own accord. In my case I ignored it for years and it got to the point where I could no longer type, which meant I couldn't work. The only thing that mitigated the pain was doing less work, or rather making the hands do less work. I advise you to take a multi-pronged approach.

1) Replace your mouse - you're already looking at this
2) Replace your keyboard with a more ergonomic one
3) Start looking into speech recognition

With regard to (1) above, I cannot help you with your pen tablet queries, as like you I struggled to find anywhere to put such a tablet that did not require a long reach away from my keyboard. Reaching out merely transfers the stress from the wrist to the shoulder, and the pain will likely move there. Also, I have owned Wacom tablets in the past and did not find them useful as mouse replacements. I did try a mini trackpad like this Perixx, which helped a bit because it was small enough to stick (using a blob of Blu-Tack) to an empty space in the middle of my keyboard.

I liked the look of the Rollermouse but did not try that because it didn't quite fit my use-case, namely that I type with the keyboard and trackball on a little tray in my lap. That means that my hands are in a natural resting position in front of me, but it also means that I have no place to put something as large as the Rollermouse.

So what do I use? Well, I have used trackballs for many years, because I like not needing to move my arm around or create space for a mousepad. Once I got the ergonomic keyboard sorted out (below) and had begun using speech recognition, I saw no reason to switch from the trackball to anything else. I have a Logitech MX Ergo at the moment. It's fine.

As for (2) above, I strongly advise you to look into getting an ergonomic keyboard if you haven't already done that. Your hands should be held naturally at the ends of your arms and curled inward slightly, not pointing out to the sides. (When using a typical rectangular keyboard, your left hand will be kinked slightly to the left at the end of your arm, and your right hand kinked to the right. This may cause wrist pain.) A Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic wouldn't be a bad start. If that works for you and eases the stress, great.

If it doesn't help, try a keyboard in which the two halves are split, and for which you can adjust the angles (tent and slope). If I were buying at the moment I would be very interested in the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard, which was being designed but was not complete when I purchased my own keyboard. Don't let the silly name discourage you - the people are run it are genuine and the product has great reviews.

What may be interesting about the UHK for you are the modules that allow you to put a trackball, trackpad, or trackpoint in the centre of the keyboard, enabling them to be used with very little lateral movement of the hand and arm.

My own keyboard and mouse setup looks like this. The keyboard is a custom Atreus62. It's only 29cm wide at the broadest point. The keys are in columns, rather than staggered, to prevent stress caused by fingers twisting around laterally. (The UHK has staggered rather than straight columns - its only disadvantage, as far as I can see.) The layout of the keys on my Atreus62 is based on the Norman keyboard layout, which is far more efficient than QWERTY.

Finally, consider trialling Dragon NaturallySpeaking. Speech recognition is a long and frustrating road, but it helps a great deal. It allowed me to continue working.

The items linked to above are nearly all expensive. Not being able to work due to hand / wrist / arm / shoulder pain - which was the point I was approaching in 2016 - would be considerably more expensive.

I should also point out that none of these devices are conventional, and thus they will all probably feel odd or uncomfortable when you first start using them. I would take it in stages and try to get a feel over the course of days and weeks for how much effect each incremental change has. And I'd start with the cheapest items. The Perixx is only £18.

Regards,
Dan

PS And don't forget posture!


P.L.F. Persio
 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:34
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Dictation Nov 28, 2020

Dan Lucas wrote:

Start looking into speech recognition



Years ago I developed a very serious RSI problem with pain that began in my wrists and eventually went all the way up my arm. This was due to excessive mouse pointing and clicking. So I gave Mac Dictation a try. Mac Dictation comes with the Mac OS (i.e. you don't have to buy it or install it and it is fully integrated with the operating system) but I understand that for Windows users, Dragon works equally well (although you do have to buy it and install it, and it isn't fully integrated with Windows).

Once I got the hang of Dictation I not only found that my RSI cleared up and didn't come back; I also discovered that it very significantly improved my translating speed and eliminated my frequent typing mistakes. As long as you have a good microphone, I would highly recommend either Mac Dictation or Dragon.

[Edited at 2020-11-28 10:48 GMT]


P.L.F. Persio
 
Samuel Murray
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Netherlands
Local time: 16:34
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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@Danielle Nov 28, 2020

Danielle Crouch wrote:
I have recently started experiencing some minor RSI pain in my hands and wrists and am currently considering several options for more ergonomic input devices, one of which is a pen tablet.


I can't see how using a pen tablet will result in less strain on the wrists. Check out this video and the guy's comments (okay, this is for drawing purposes, but some of those comments apply to us as well).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d7MjGRtsOs

Oh, and the tablet featured in this video is $22, so you can test it easily with little expense.

--
Added: I dusted off my old Wacom Intuos and tried to use it as a mouse for a while. The only benefit was that I was free to rotate my wrist into a more natural position. I personally don't have wrist problems with a mouse, but I can see how the act of holding on to a mouse causes the wrist to turn outwards in an "unnatural" way which can cause strain for some people.

My tablet had a button on it that allowed me to switch on finger sensitivity, so that I could use it as a large track pad with my fingers instead of having to use the pen. This is something that I might actually consider.

The tablet has two modes, namely a "pen" mode and a "mouse" mode. In pen mode, the tablet's surface is mapped one-to-one with the screen (if you lift the pen, move it, and put it down again, the mouse arrow instantly jumps to the new location), whereas in mouse mode the pen behaves more like a mouse (although it jumps around a lot more than with a real mouse).

[Edited at 2020-11-28 17:04 GMT]


P.L.F. Persio
 
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:34
Member (2004)
English to Italian
vertical mouse Nov 28, 2020

it solved my problem...

P.L.F. Persio
 
Danielle Crouch
Danielle Crouch  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 16:34
Member (2019)
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks! Nov 29, 2020

Thanks for all the feedback, everyone! I've done a good amount of thinking about this topic this weekend and reading a variety of thoughts on the subject has been helpful.

Dan Lucas wrote:

I advise you to take a multi-pronged approach.

1) Replace your mouse - you're already looking at this
2) Replace your keyboard with a more ergonomic one
3) Start looking into speech recognition


This sounds like a great idea. I need to seriously address the ergonomics of my entire work setup and these all sound like good areas to start with (other than getting a good chair to supplement the standing desk and physio ball "chair" that I currently switch between). The suggestions and notes you've given about different products are super helpful and I will definitely do some research and consider some of those. Thank you!

Regarding dictation, it is something I have considered but my limited experience with it (using it for a very short time for my personal writing when a burn on my hand prevented typing) has been less than stellar. I used the built-in Mac dictation feature and it was extremely inaccurate and sometimes missed entire sentences, even when using it with a microphone in a quiet room. I use Windows for work so Dragon would be an option, but my concern is that it would actually decrease my translation speed because I would have to constantly correct errors it made (I type fast so can get through typed translations quickly). Dan, when you say "speech recognition is a long and frustrating road," how long and what are the frustrations exactly? I have heard that you can "train" Dragon; how long does that take and does it actually get to a point where you aren't constantly correcting it? Tom, although you use Mac dictation and not Dragon, I'd be interested to hear from you on this too (and anyone else who uses dictation).

Joakim Brown wrote:

You should do most things with the keyboard (like scrolling), not with the mouse.


I do many things with the keyboard already, but scrolling isn't one of them. Maybe I've gone about it wrong, but scrolling with the keyboard actually feels like more work to me than using the mouse. Although I think the scrolling wheel on the mouse (between the left and right mouse buttons) is one of the things about my mouse that strains my hand the most, so maybe I should give it a more serious try.

Sadek_A wrote:

Then, why not a stylus touchpad?


Is this the same as a pen tablet? When I say pen tablet I mean something like a Wacom Intuos, like Samuel mentioned.


 
Sadek_A
Sadek_A  Identity Verified
Local time: 19:34
English to Arabic
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..... Nov 29, 2020

In current IT world, tablet is usually used to commercially denote an appliance that has own interactive touch-screen, storage, ram, processor, etc.

Regarding your options, you are -frankly- only limited by your non-previous experience with the problem (?), as there are many solutions.

Try a slim mouse (bluetooth-operated, maybe), a laser projection trackpad (and, perhaps, keyboard too), a stylus/non-stylus touchpad, an interactive touch overlay frame (for your monitor;
... See more
In current IT world, tablet is usually used to commercially denote an appliance that has own interactive touch-screen, storage, ram, processor, etc.

Regarding your options, you are -frankly- only limited by your non-previous experience with the problem (?), as there are many solutions.

Try a slim mouse (bluetooth-operated, maybe), a laser projection trackpad (and, perhaps, keyboard too), a stylus/non-stylus touchpad, an interactive touch overlay frame (for your monitor; if size, position and viewing distance can allow it).

As far as I know, that Wacom line is meant (according to optimal benefit) for digital drawing, painting and/or photo editing. If that's what you need, go for it.

Anyway, you will need to try before you buy, or else watch the item's Unboxing&Rating videos.

Good luck.
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Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:34
Member (2008)
Italian to English
More Nov 30, 2020

Danielle Crouch wrote:

....how long does that take and does it actually get to a point where you aren't constantly correcting it? Tom, although you use Mac dictation and not Dragon, I'd be interested to hear from you on this too


Mac Dictation and Dragon both have their foibles, but despite what you say I'm pretty pleased with Mac Dictation. The key thing is that you have to set it for "Enhanced Dictation" (in System Preferences). "Enhanced Dictation" means that your voice tone and pronunciation are being sent to Apple and memorised. Over time, you'll find that the software gets better and better at understanding what you say. One strange thing about it is that if you speak slowly it doesn't work too well, but if you speak quickly it's very good.


 
Natalie
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Pen tablet versus laptop with a touch screen Nov 30, 2020

Hi Danielle,

Of course, it is possible to use a pen tablet as a second screen. But please note, that it works with a pen only - I mean, you cannot just press something with your finger, you will need to use the pen all the time, to tick, press, scroll, etc. Such tablets are intended primarily for drawing, but not for such works as translating, the more so for using CAT tools.

Instead, consider buying a laptop with a touch screen: it can be used as a "normal" computer,
... See more
Hi Danielle,

Of course, it is possible to use a pen tablet as a second screen. But please note, that it works with a pen only - I mean, you cannot just press something with your finger, you will need to use the pen all the time, to tick, press, scroll, etc. Such tablets are intended primarily for drawing, but not for such works as translating, the more so for using CAT tools.

Instead, consider buying a laptop with a touch screen: it can be used as a "normal" computer, but you can also just press the screen with your finger, for example to scroll, like you do this in a smartphone. You can also use a pen or a stylus for more precise actions.

Natalia
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Dan Lucas
Dan Lucas  Identity Verified
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Local time: 15:34
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
DNS is better than I may have made it sound Nov 30, 2020

Danielle Crouch wrote:
Dan, when you say "speech recognition is a long and frustrating road," how long and what are the frustrations exactly? I have heard that you can "train" Dragon; how long does that take and does it actually get to a point where you aren't constantly correcting it?


I should state here and now that I use Dragon NaturallySpeaking every day and I would be lost without it, for all its flaws. I should also say that it is remarkably good at what it does, if you play to its strengths. I am dictating this text, for example, and provided that I enunciate clearly I do not run into problems. The only problem in that last paragraph was when the software interpreted "enunciate" as "annunciate".

DNS works best when you speak in full sentences, rather than feeding words to it a bit at a time. If, like me, you have a tendency to mutter or mumble, you will have occasional issues. DNS uses some kind of AI-based approach that seems to take into account the likelihood of the sentence being spoken when making a judgment about what has been said to it. On the whole this works well, but when I need to use terminology with which DNS is unfamiliar it will generally go with what it thinks is more likely in general terms, which is often wrong in the specific context I am using. Of course, I can usually fix this with a simple "correct that".

The usual workaround is to save terms you use often in the vocabulary, which is not at all difficult. These are then given priority. The other area of weakness is that DNS seems to me to struggle when dealing with short sentence fragments. I assume this is because it cannot derive enough context to make a good educated guess. So if I speak a single word, it will sometimes fail to get it if there is any ambiguity. This does not seem to be an issue with pronunciation per se, but rather an issue with an opinionated DNS assigning a low probability to the words you actually want written. Sometimes I repeat a word several times, and it simply will not get it. In such cases I resort to using "spell that".

I have learned through experience that the best way to dictate while translating is to form the whole sentence, or at least a decent-sized fragment of the sentence in your head, then speak it all at once, preferably up to a punctuation point such as a comma or full stop. If you speak in short bursts with long pauses ("Operating profit increased by... 14% in the first half of... The fiscal year ending March 2021...") then the software will not work at its best. I suspect that this is what is happening in the scenario noted by Tom above. It may be that he is speaking slowly enough that the Apple dictation software assumes that the sentence has finished and then attempts to recognise each small fragment, instead of waiting for the whole sentence and parsing that entire (and much richer) context.

There are other minor issues. Sometimes it seems to just not hear words at the start of the sentence, or ignore them. It just wrote "other minor issues" instead of "there are other minor issues", for example. It has difficulty distinguishing between certain sounds such that in my case it often renders "invested in" as "investing". Again, if I enunciate clearly then this is not a problem, but when chasing a deadline at 11 PM at night I am seldom in tiptop form and my voice is often tired, which manifests itself as poor pronunciation.

I'm dictating this into Notepad, by the way, which brings me to another issue with DNS and indeed any other dictation software products: their use with CAT tools. In the case of SDL Studio, you can dictate into a segment, but you have no access to any of the usual tools for tweaking the output (this is an issue with Studio, not DNS). You can't just say "cap that" to capitalise something, or "correct that" to correct something. What I do is dictating to [EDIT: see what happened there? I wanted "dictate into" but DNS wrote "dictating to"] Notepad and use a voice macro to copy the text and paste it into Studio.

Training is no longer an issue. I think it gives you a two-minute text to read to it at the start, but after that you should be good to go.

Finally, I should clarify that when dictate text I still have my hands on the keyboard and I still use them, but I use them a whole lot less than I would if I were actually typing. Like you, I am a competent typist and can sustain 50-60 words per minute without any problems. Using Dragon NaturallySpeaking is as fast or faster than typing for me, mistakes and all. More importantly it dramatically reduces the burden on my hands, wrists, arms and shoulders.

Regards,
Dan

[Edited at 2020-11-30 12:57 GMT]


Tom in London
Christopher Schröder
 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 16:34
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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@Natalie Nov 30, 2020

Natalie wrote:
Of course, it is possible to use a pen tablet as a second screen. But please note, that it works with a pen only - I mean, you cannot just press something with your finger, you will need to use the pen all the time, to tick, press, scroll, etc.


Some screen tablets do accept finger input. In fact, digital artists often wear a special one- or two-finger glove to prevent their pinkie pressing against the screen from being accepted as input by the tablet. And finger input is great for zooming in and out or rotating the image on the screen.


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:34
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Exactly Nov 30, 2020

Dan Lucas wrote:

.... I suspect that this is what is happening in the scenario noted by Tom above. It may be that he is speaking slowly enough that the Apple dictation software assumes that the sentence has finished and then attempts to recognise each small fragment, instead of waiting for the whole sentence and parsing that entire (and much richer) context.


That's exactly it. Dan - your explanation is excellent. MacDictation does seem to rely on context to "guess" what each word is. That's why speaking slowly (essentially one ---word---at---a---time) flummoxes it. But speaking quickly, it's excellent and even knows words like "autocthonous".


 
Christopher Schröder
Christopher Schröder
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+1 for Dragon Nov 30, 2020

I also switched to using the mouse with my left hand. It didn’t take long to master and I’ve never gone back.

PS Dragon works perfectly well with Wordfast Classic.

PPS The only thing you really lose time on with Dragon when you start using it is teaching it foreign names.

PPPS The way in which you translate and what you translate will affect whether you get on with it. It’s rubbish at odd snippets, as Dan says. It’s best for properly flowing text.
... See more
I also switched to using the mouse with my left hand. It didn’t take long to master and I’ve never gone back.

PS Dragon works perfectly well with Wordfast Classic.

PPS The only thing you really lose time on with Dragon when you start using it is teaching it foreign names.

PPPS The way in which you translate and what you translate will affect whether you get on with it. It’s rubbish at odd snippets, as Dan says. It’s best for properly flowing text. You’re then essentially a simultaneous interpreter. I think this helps massively with natural flow.

LotsofPsS If you work for agencies using TMs and MT, or do manuals with lots of diagrams or scanned pdfs with a million stray tags, Dragon will be next to useless. It’s crap for editing.
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