Off topic: She beat up her daughter because she was drunk.
Thread poster: Jaspal Singh
Jaspal Singh
Jaspal Singh
India
Local time: 14:10
English to Punjabi
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Sep 25, 2019

Who was drunk in this sentence, mother or daughter?

 
Samuel Murray
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Netherlands
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Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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Could be either Sep 26, 2019

Jaspal Singh wrote:
"She beat up her daughter because she was drunk."
Who was drunk in this sentence, mother or daughter?


It could be either. In the English language, you'd need more information. In "she threw a brick at the window, and it shattered" we can be fairly certain that the brick didn't shatter. But mothers and daughters can both do violent things to each other when sober or drunk.

By the way, how do you know that the first "she" is the daughter's mother? You're assuming that the first "she" and "her" refers to the same person, but it doesn't have to be so, in type of sentence in English. (-:


Jaspal Singh
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Sandra Cravero
Sandra Cravero  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 05:40
English to Spanish
Ambiguity: could be both Sep 26, 2019

You need to gather the answer from the context, sometimes.

In fact, when writing, it's recommended to avoid ambiguity. If you can ask the author of this text, you'd better do that.
I hope it helps.


Jaspal Singh
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Christine Andersen
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Denmark
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Danish to English
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First I assumed the mother, but immediately began to wonder Sep 26, 2019

Just seeing the heading of your thread without the discussion certainly made me wonder.

My first thought was that the mother was drunk, and therefore out of control, so she beat up her daughter.
Then I wondered - it was equally possible that the daughter was drunk, and the mother was just angry.

Strictly, Samuel is right, and you cannot assume it was her own daughter. I think most people would, however. If it was someone else's daughter, I would write 'she beat up
... See more
Just seeing the heading of your thread without the discussion certainly made me wonder.

My first thought was that the mother was drunk, and therefore out of control, so she beat up her daughter.
Then I wondered - it was equally possible that the daughter was drunk, and the mother was just angry.

Strictly, Samuel is right, and you cannot assume it was her own daughter. I think most people would, however. If it was someone else's daughter, I would write 'she beat up the daughter...'
or rephrase it one way or another.
Possibly I would call her 'the girl' or 'the younger woman', if the mother was also present in the scene, and another woman was doing the beating. Or technically it might be her father…

Context, more context is needed!!!

In my source language, assuming it was written correctly, the reflexive pronoun would be used for the woman's own daughter, and a different possessive pronoun for a third person's daughter. Many speakers have trouble deciding which to use, so it would not be entirely reliable, but it helps.

The reflexive pronoun is gender neutral, i.e. the same for both genders, but the simple possessive is not
- as with English his and her...

Hun tævede sin datter = She beat her (own) daughter.
Han tævede sin datter = He beat his (own) daughter.

Hun tævede hendes datter = She beat another woman's daughter.
Hun tævede hans datter = She beat a/the man's daughter.

Happy translating!


[Edited at 2019-09-26 15:23 GMT]
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Jaspal Singh
expressisverbis
 
Andrzej Mierzejewski
Andrzej Mierzejewski  Identity Verified
Poland
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Polish to English
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the latter Sep 26, 2019

"She beat up her daughter because she was drunk." - In my understanding of the English language, both instances of "she" regard to the same person that is the mother.

If you write "She beat up her daughter because the latter was drunk." - This will indicate that it's the daughter who was drunk.

HTH

[Zmieniono 2019-09-26 14:30 GMT]


DZiW (X)
Jaspal Singh
Kay Denney
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Robert Rietvelt
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The daughter Sep 26, 2019

Just analyze the sentence:

Beat up - who is beating up? - the mother - what is she beating up? - the daughter - why? - because she was drunk.

Voilà!

[Edited at 2019-09-26 15:15 GMT]


 
Christine Andersen
Christine Andersen  Identity Verified
Denmark
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Member (2003)
Danish to English
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English is not that simple :-D Sep 26, 2019

Robert Rietvelt wrote:

Just analyze the sentence:

Beat up - who is beating up? - the mother - what is she beating up? - the daughter - why? - because she was drunk.

What is the problem here?


Which of them was drunk?
Don´t accept everything you may read in grammar books - most speakers and writers of English have never read them!
English as she is spoke just ain´t like that!


MollyRose
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Maxi Schwarz
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German to English
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It's ambiguous Sep 27, 2019

If this were in a real translation situation, especially one where the law might become involved, you would want to ask the client for more information. Sometimes context might help. "Daughter was starting to booze heavily with her friends. Mother got fed up. She beat up her daughter .... " etc. would be context. But heck, they could both be drunk! You would want to write a footnote / alert the client in regard to the ambiguity.

In regard to grammar rules - last person mention
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If this were in a real translation situation, especially one where the law might become involved, you would want to ask the client for more information. Sometimes context might help. "Daughter was starting to booze heavily with her friends. Mother got fed up. She beat up her daughter .... " etc. would be context. But heck, they could both be drunk! You would want to write a footnote / alert the client in regard to the ambiguity.

In regard to grammar rules - last person mentioned is the person being referred to - unfortunately people whose texts we translated are not necessarily sticklers of grammar, and are not always clear writers.
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Daryo
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Christine Andersen
 
Paweł Hamerski
Paweł Hamerski
Poland
Local time: 09:40
English to Polish
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it does not matter who - I think I can translate it with the same degree of Sep 27, 2019

ambiguity into my language

Christine Andersen
Mervyn Henderson (X)
MollyRose
Kay Denney
 
Daryo
Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:40
Serbian to English
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Read the whole paragraph / section / document? Sep 27, 2019

from just that one sentence alone you can't be sure.

Even trying to figure out what's more probable won't work.

But you could draw reasonable conclusions from what happened before, and especially from what happened after - any mention in the following text of who ended up in the hospital?



[Edited at 2019-09-27 14:10 GMT]


expressisverbis
 
Adieu
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Ukrainian to English
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Unknown Jan 7, 2021

The drunk party may or may not be the beating party.

The drunk party may be the mother, the daughter, or a third female party.

The beating party may be the mother or a third woman.

Ex1: Drunk female stranger beat up the sober daughter (because stranger was drunk and disorderly)
Ex2: Sober policewoman beat up the drunk daughter (for drinking)

[Edited at 2021-01-07 06:27 GMT]

[Edited at 2021-01-07 06:32 GMT]


 
Jo Macdonald
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Spain
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Italian to English
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Gran picks fight with mum, granddaughter jumps in, ends up in a free for all. Jan 7, 2021

Who was drunk?

All of em of course.


Christopher Schröder
expressisverbis
 
MollyRose
MollyRose  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 03:40
English to Spanish
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to be unambiguous Jan 8, 2021

She beat up her daughter in a drunken rage.
She beat up her daughter because the latter was drunk.

If she beat up her daughter BECAUSE she (the mother) was drunk, and we analyze the statement a bit, the mother could have been angry because she (the mother) was drunk and took it out on her daughter. Another ambiguity!

Unfortunately, not everyone writes so clearly, much less speaks like that. But usually the context should make it clear what is meant.


 
Mervyn Henderson (X)
Mervyn Henderson (X)  Identity Verified
Spain
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Spanish to English
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Why? Jan 8, 2021

Jaspal, most people have already answered you logically. What I would beg is some context. Where does this come from, if anywhere, and why do you want to know? Is it specific? Or could it also have been 'He beat up his son because he was drunk'? I won't go into statistics, but hey.

Again, is it specific? Because it could have been 'She gave her daughter money because she wanted cabbage for lunch.' Is the beating up crucial here? Is there some message you want to convey? If you do, j
... See more
Jaspal, most people have already answered you logically. What I would beg is some context. Where does this come from, if anywhere, and why do you want to know? Is it specific? Or could it also have been 'He beat up his son because he was drunk'? I won't go into statistics, but hey.

Again, is it specific? Because it could have been 'She gave her daughter money because she wanted cabbage for lunch.' Is the beating up crucial here? Is there some message you want to convey? If you do, just say it.

Edit: I now see the original post is from well over a year ago. But you could still tell us.

[Edited at 2021-01-08 10:35 GMT]
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expressisverbis
 
Yaotl Altan
Yaotl Altan  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 02:40
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
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Even in Spanish Jan 11, 2021

Samuel Murray wrote:

Jaspal Singh wrote:
"She beat up her daughter because she was drunk."
Who was drunk in this sentence, mother or daughter?


It could be either. In the English language, you'd need more information. In "she threw a brick at the window, and it shattered" we can be fairly certain that the brick didn't shatter. But mothers and daughters can both do violent things to each other when sober or drunk.

By the way, how do you know that the first "she" is the daughter's mother? You're assuming that the first "she" and "her" refers to the same person, but it doesn't have to be so, in type of sentence in English. (-:


Even in Spanish it wouldn't be clear:

"Golpeó a su hija porque llegó ebria".

We don't know who drank.

[Edited at 2021-01-12 16:20 GMT]


expressisverbis
 


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She beat up her daughter because she was drunk.







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