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"Premium"(?) jobs do not necessarily pay above-market rates
Thread poster: Mirko Mainardi
texjax DDS PhD
texjax DDS PhD  Identity Verified
Local time: 04:30
Member (2006)
English to Italian
+ ...
Definitely Jul 28, 2017

Mirko Mainardi wrote:

this is not a 'matter of faith', of believing in fairy tales, etc., but of how the system works. If ProZ itself decided to use its own "community rates" as a parameter for how one of its features works, then that's how it should be. No subjectivity is involved there.


You are absolutely right about that, Mirko!


 
gayd (X)
gayd (X)
main parameter for PROZ Jul 28, 2017

The only parameter for PROZ is the number of would be translators willing to pay for
the membership. So a very high community rate is far better to achieve this objective.

[Modifié le 2017-07-28 12:51 GMT]


 
Mirko Mainardi
Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 09:30
Member
English to Italian
TOPIC STARTER
OT Jul 28, 2017

David GAY wrote:

The only parameter for PROZ is the number of would be translators willing to pay for
the membership. So a very high community rate is far better to achieve this objective.


Although I do agree on the first part, I don't see how this is relevant, nor how that would work, also considering that most "newbies" I see around here (either paying or not) often work at rates (or however advertise them on their profiles) that are even lower (sometimes by far) than the one mentioned here and are not even aware of the existence of "community rates" feature, let alone be enticed by it...

Actually, by reading threads here and there over the years, whenever rates pop up, it's usually long-time members who complain about low rates offered by clients here, or say how "community rates" are on the low side (and however unreliable), etc.

However, if you consider those rates "very high", well, to each his own.


 
gayd (X)
gayd (X)
dual market Jul 28, 2017

Mirko Mainardi wrote:

David GAY wrote:

The only parameter for PROZ is the number of would be translators willing to pay for
the membership. So a very high community rate is far better to achieve this objective.


Although I do agree on the first part, I don't see how this is relevant, nor how that would work, also considering that most "newbies" I see around here (either paying or not) often work at rates (or however advertise them on their profiles) that are even lower (sometimes by far) than the one mentioned here and are not even aware of the existence of "community rates" feature, let alone be enticed by it...

Actually, by reading threads here and there over the years, whenever rates pop up, it's usually long-time members who complain about low rates offered by clients here, or say how "community rates" are on the low side (and however unreliable), etc.

However, if you consider those rates "very high", well, to each his own.


The translation market is a dual market
there's a market for non specialized translation with very low rates, because anybody can translate those texts.
there's a market for technical translation, i.e. translation requiring special expertise for which the prices
are or should be much higher. I think the biggest mistake is to consider that the prices should be the same
for a catalogue, for a touristic leaflet, a cooking recipe, a medical text and so forth

[Modifié le 2017-07-28 13:19 GMT]

[Modifié le 2017-07-28 13:26 GMT]


 
Ramey Rieger (X)
Ramey Rieger (X)  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 09:30
German to English
You... Jul 28, 2017

...would be STUNNED to know how much research is involved in translating what you call a simple recipe! Conversions, available ingredients, etc. The same applies to a tourist leaflet (history, landmarks, possible dialect, etc.) or a medical text (wouldn't touch it). Professionalism is the rate-setter in my opinion, not the source text. When it comes to rates, and I say this for the umpteenth time, what counts is experience, references and communication. I assume that the Proz minimum rate is set... See more
...would be STUNNED to know how much research is involved in translating what you call a simple recipe! Conversions, available ingredients, etc. The same applies to a tourist leaflet (history, landmarks, possible dialect, etc.) or a medical text (wouldn't touch it). Professionalism is the rate-setter in my opinion, not the source text. When it comes to rates, and I say this for the umpteenth time, what counts is experience, references and communication. I assume that the Proz minimum rate is set according to an average calculated by the rates translators post in their profiles.



David Gay wrote:
The translation market is a dual market
there's a market for non specialized translation with very low rates, because anybody can translate those texts.
there's a market for technical translation, i.e. translation requiring special expertise for which the prices
are or should be much higher. I think the biggest mistake is to consider that the prices should be the same
for a catalogue, for a touristic leaflet, a cooking recipe, a medical text and so forth

Cheers!
Ramey
Collapse


 
writeaway
writeaway  Identity Verified
French to English
+ ...
Yes but Jul 28, 2017

David GAY wrote:

The translation market is a dual market
there's a market for non specialized translation with very low rates, because anybody can translate those texts.
there's a market for technical translation, i.e. translation requiring special expertise for which the prices are or should be much higher.

[Modifié le 2017-07-28 13:19 GMT]


The problem is that "everyone" now seems to feel they are able to translate legal, medical, financial and other supposedly specialised fields. Look at the number of eager beavers who rush in to bid on any Fr-En "legal" job. And the sky is the limit for contracts or T&C.
Imo, most outsourcers currently posting jobs on Proz are just out for the cheapest possible solution.
And there are enough dabblers, pin money/armchair translators who are now paying members of the site (talk of community is no longer relevant on today's Proz, imo) that for outsourcers, finding a low-cost translation is as hard as shooting fish in a barrel.

[Edited at 2017-07-28 13:41 GMT]


 
gayd (X)
gayd (X)
level of study required Jul 28, 2017

Ramey Rieger wrote:

...would be STUNNED to know how much research is involved in translating what you call a simple recipe! Conversions, available ingredients, etc. The same applies to a tourist leaflet (history, landmarks, possible dialect, etc.) or a medical text (wouldn't touch it). Professionalism is the rate-setter in my opinion, not the source text. When it comes to rates, and I say this for the umpteenth time, what counts is experience, references and communication. I assume that the Proz minimum rate is set according to an average calculated by the rates translators post in their profiles.



David Gay wrote:
The translation market is a dual market
there's a market for non specialized translation with very low rates, because anybody can translate those texts.
there's a market for technical translation, i.e. translation requiring special expertise for which the prices
are or should be much higher. I think the biggest mistake is to consider that the prices should be the same
for a catalogue, for a touristic leaflet, a cooking recipe, a medical text and so forth

Cheers!
Ramey


To me, the only criteria is the level of knowledge involved

medical, engineering, financial, legal translation vs cooking, tourism.
If the level of knowledge involved is much higher, there's much less competition and prices are much higher.


 
Robert Rietvelt
Robert Rietvelt  Identity Verified
Local time: 09:30
Member (2006)
Spanish to Dutch
+ ...
Agree Jul 28, 2017

Ramey Rieger wrote:

...would be STUNNED to know how much research is involved in translating what you call a simple recipe! Conversions, available ingredients, etc. The same applies to a tourist leaflet (history, landmarks, possible dialect, etc.) or a medical text (wouldn't touch it). Professionalism is the rate-setter in my opinion, not the source text. When it comes to rates, and I say this for the umpteenth time, what counts is experience, references and communication. I assume that the Proz minimum rate is set according to an average calculated by the rates translators post in their profiles.


Totally!


 
Anna Bessonov
Anna Bessonov
United States
Local time: 04:30
English to Russian
+ ...
Agree Jul 28, 2017

writeaway wrote:

David GAY wrote:

The translation market is a dual market
there's a market for non specialized translation with very low rates, because anybody can translate those texts.
there's a market for technical translation, i.e. translation requiring special expertise for which the prices are or should be much higher.

[Modifié le 2017-07-28 13:19 GMT]


The problem is that "everyone" now seems to feel they are able to translate legal, medical, financial and other supposedly specialised fields. Look at the number of eager beavers who rush in to bid on any Fr-En "legal" job. And the sky is the limit for contracts or T&C.
Imo, most outsourcers currently posting jobs on Proz are just out for the cheapest possible solution.
And there are enough dabblers, pin money/armchair translators who are now paying members of the site (talk of community is no longer relevant on today's Proz, imo) that for outsourcers, finding a low-cost translation is as hard as shooting fish in a barrel.

[Edited at 2017-07-28 13:41 GMT]


I recently reached out to some proz members offering to participate in the paid test job. When they agreed, I sent 2 abstracts from the test to them to take a look and instructions on how to proceed, majority disappeared, some emailed me back telling that this is not their field of expertise. So out of about 15 people reached at proz, 0 agreed to take a paid test, even with the perspective of steady workflow in the future.


 
Robert Rietvelt
Robert Rietvelt  Identity Verified
Local time: 09:30
Member (2006)
Spanish to Dutch
+ ...
Level of knowledge or experience? Jul 28, 2017

David GAY wrote:

Ramey Rieger wrote:

...would be STUNNED to know how much research is involved in translating what you call a simple recipe! Conversions, available ingredients, etc. The same applies to a tourist leaflet (history, landmarks, possible dialect, etc.) or a medical text (wouldn't touch it). Professionalism is the rate-setter in my opinion, not the source text. When it comes to rates, and I say this for the umpteenth time, what counts is experience, references and communication. I assume that the Proz minimum rate is set according to an average calculated by the rates translators post in their profiles.



David Gay wrote:
The translation market is a dual market
there's a market for non specialized translation with very low rates, because anybody can translate those texts.
there's a market for technical translation, i.e. translation requiring special expertise for which the prices
are or should be much higher. I think the biggest mistake is to consider that the prices should be the same
for a catalogue, for a touristic leaflet, a cooking recipe, a medical text and so forth

Cheers!
Ramey


To me, the only criteria is the level of knowledge involved

medical, engineering, financial, legal translation vs cooking, tourism.
If the level of knowledge involved is much higher, there's much less competition and prices are much higher.



I do Tourism among other things.

In a former life I worked as a tour operator for 3 years at a travel agency, 9 years as a tour leader in Asia, Europe, Latin America and the USA, more than 10 years as a travel photographer and travelled for years (as backpacker) around the world.

Does that qualify?

[Edited at 2017-07-28 13:57 GMT]


 
gayd (X)
gayd (X)
Kudoz Jul 28, 2017

writeaway wrote:

David GAY wrote:

The translation market is a dual market
there's a market for non specialized translation with very low rates, because anybody can translate those texts.
there's a market for technical translation, i.e. translation requiring special expertise for which the prices are or should be much higher.

[Modifié le 2017-07-28 13:19 GMT]


The problem is that "everyone" now seems to feel they are able to translate legal, medical, financial and other supposedly specialised fields. Look at the number of eager beavers who rush in to bid on any Fr-En "legal" job. And the sky is the limit for contracts or T&C.
Imo, most outsourcers currently posting jobs on Proz are just out for the cheapest possible solution.
And there are enough dabblers, pin money/armchair translators who are now paying members of the site (talk of community is no longer relevant on today's Proz, imo) that for outsourcers, finding a low-cost translation is as hard as shooting fish in a barrel.

[Edited at 2017-07-28 13:41 GMT]


Some agencies don't seem to care because their super low cost translators are helped out by series of Kudoz questions. So why should these agencies pay more? But there are high end agencies which prefer translators
who have expertise in their working field because their high end clients (banks, physicians, engineers...) would soon discover the difference.


 
Robert Forstag
Robert Forstag  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:30
Spanish to English
+ ...
This site is apparently violating its own rules Jul 28, 2017

Mirko Mainardi wrote:


Dr. Matthias Schauen wrote:

Mirko, according to the FAQs you could send a support ticket:


Yes, I did that. The reply was: "I will contact the outsourcer regarding the matter".


If this is accurate (and I have no reason to believe that it is not) then proz.com is violating its own rules by identifying such a project as "premium," and should be held to account for it to assure that it does not happen again.

In this regard, I offer the following observations:
1.
Many of the comments here are simply off point (as Mirko rightly says, his original post was not another complaint about low rates *per se*).
2.
Proz.com's response about "contacting the outsourcer" seems an attempt to skirt responsibility for its own mistake in allowing the job to be advertised as "premium."


 
gayd (X)
gayd (X)
easy answer Jul 28, 2017

Robert Rietvelt wrote:

David GAY wrote:

Ramey Rieger wrote:

...would be STUNNED to know how much research is involved in translating what you call a simple recipe! Conversions, available ingredients, etc. The same applies to a tourist leaflet (history, landmarks, possible dialect, etc.) or a medical text (wouldn't touch it). Professionalism is the rate-setter in my opinion, not the source text. When it comes to rates, and I say this for the umpteenth time, what counts is experience, references and communication. I assume that the Proz minimum rate is set according to an average calculated by the rates translators post in their profiles.



David Gay wrote:
The translation market is a dual market
there's a market for non specialized translation with very low rates, because anybody can translate those texts.
there's a market for technical translation, i.e. translation requiring special expertise for which the prices
are or should be much higher. I think the biggest mistake is to consider that the prices should be the same
for a catalogue, for a touristic leaflet, a cooking recipe, a medical text and so forth

Cheers!
Ramey


To me, the only criteria is the level of knowledge involved

medical, engineering, financial, legal translation vs cooking, tourism.
If the level of knowledge involved is much higher, there's much less competition and prices are much higher.



I do Tourism among other things.

In a former life I worked as a tour operator for 3 years at a travel agency, 9 years as a tour leader in Asia, Europe, Latin America and the USA, more than 10 years as a travel photographer and travelled for years (as backpacker) around the world.

Does that qualify?

[Edited at 2017-07-28 13:57 GMT]




Can you find clients who pay more than 0.1 euro per sw for touristic translations? I'm afraid the markets for cooking recipes and touristic brochures are overcrowded

[Modifié le 2017-07-28 14:01 GMT]

[Modifié le 2017-07-28 14:07 GMT]


 
Jennifer Forbes
Jennifer Forbes  Identity Verified
Local time: 08:30
French to English
+ ...
In memoriam
Cookery books Jul 28, 2017

As the translator of two cookery books I endorse what Ramay Rieger says.
In France, and doubtless elsewhere too, "la gastronomie" is regarded as an art and the translation of cookery books demands an enormous amount of knowledge, cultural understanding and research. In no way is it a "doddle".


 
Robert Forstag
Robert Forstag  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:30
Spanish to English
+ ...
A most unimpressive offer Jul 28, 2017

MK2010 wrote:

...it's a monthly gig if you get it. 9,000 words a month for an international airline, which is sort of prestigious. That's over 500 euros a month. In some places, that's your rent right there. I'd say it's a very interesting job offer and if it were in my language pair, I would definitely go for it. Regular gigs are hard to come by.


I value "regular gigs" myself. But if you do the math, you'll discover that this is really a lowball offer. Doing such work effectively even for a skilled and seasoned translator probably requires a minimum of 16 total hours of work (and possibly up to 20 hours or even more, especially if some one on the other end asks for revisions). But if we stick with 16 hours and the "maximum rate" of 0.06 euros/word, for a round total of 9000 words, this works out to about 34€/hour.

This for translation of material for an international carrier that has important marketing and informational purposes.

I am underwhelmed.

All this is over and apart from the fundamental issue regarding improper identification of such an offer as "premium" that Mirko raised in his initial post in this thread.

[Edited at 2017-07-28 14:21 GMT]


 
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"Premium"(?) jobs do not necessarily pay above-market rates






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