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Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

gens du voyage

English translation:

itinerants and other transient people

Added to glossary by Roberta Beyer
Aug 7, 2013 19:22
10 yrs ago
9 viewers *
French term

gens du voyage

French to English Social Sciences Social Science, Sociology, Ethics, etc.
Hello all. I know there is another kudoz question with this term in it (http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french_to_english/government_polit... but I am not satisfied with that translation, because I do not think it would convey the correct meaning to a US English audience, especially not without context.

Background:

This is for a strategic video game that involves playing the role of a politician. Most of the occurrences of the term are in isolated sentences, so I don't have a lot of context. They are mostly actions you can perform in the game, or news headlines that pop up in the game, hence the isolated sentences. Here are some of them:

Grand rassemblement festif des gens du voyage aujourd'hui à [CITY].
Assister à une grande fête des gens du voyage
Participer à une rencontre constructive entre les gens du voyage et des responsables locaux
Interdire l'entrée dans les villes pour les gens du voyage

I do understand what "gens du voyage" means in French, but I am having a difficult time finding an appropriate US English translation. I have e-mailed the client with several options, ranging from the vague "travelers" to the offensive "gypsies." I have considered and rejected several terms, including the aforementioned, as well as "vagrants," "vagabonds," and "Romani." Some of those terms seem too offensive, "travelers" is too vague, and "Romani" refers to a specific ethnic group, which "gens du voyage" does not. I believe "Travellers" with a capital T has been used in the UK, but to my understanding, this word in fact refers to a specific ethnic group originating in Ireland, so it would not be correct, besides which it still would not be immediately understood by a US English audience.

I hope that together we can come up with something that conveys the correct meaning, including the political correctness of the French term. In my e-mail to the client, I have also asked specifically what image they are trying to evoke with the use of this term, so I can get a better idea of how to translate it if I do have to pick one of the terms I have already rejected.

Thank you in advance for your help, and for understanding why I am not comfortable using the translation already proposed in another KudoZ question (which, by the way, I am sure was perfectly correct and appropriate for that particular context, it just isn't for mine). I categorized this under "Law (general)" because "gens du voyage" is a legal category in French, but if someone wants to change the field to something they consider more accurate, please do so.
Proposed translations (English)
3 +1 itinerants and other transient people
3 +4 travel(l)ers / travel(l)ing people
4 +2 gypsies
4 +1 "Roma and Travellers"
3 +1 Romani
4 traveller communities/community
4 roaders
3 migrants
3 vagrants
References
Use of "traveler" in US text
Travellers
Change log

Aug 7, 2013 19:29: Tony M changed "Field" from "Other" to "Social Sciences" , "Field (specific)" from "Law (general)" to "Social Science, Sociology, Ethics, etc."

Discussion

Tony M Aug 8, 2013:
@ Asker Yes, I think using the capital letter, the British spelling, and if possible, using 'Travelling people' the first time the term occurs ought all to be sufficient to make it clear enough for a US audience; and Cyril has found a number of references that do mention 'travelers' in a specifically US context. So maybe it is just that the term is one with which contributors here are less familiar?
Roberta Beyer (asker) Aug 7, 2013:
@Tony Thank you. I think you're absolutely right - all of those terms have a certain negative connotation, which speaks to a general judgment about people who live those lifestyles. I also agree that, despite the likelihood of the term Travellers having originated with the Irish Travellers, it is currently used much more widely in the UK. Perhaps since there doesn't seem to be a true equivalent in the US (for the term or for the situation), the best thing would be to indeed use "Travellers," with the capital T and British spelling, to show the "foreignness" of the term, if you will, instead of trying to use an American term to describe a situation that is not the same in the US.
Yvonne Gallagher Aug 7, 2013:
@Tony. In Ireland the non-gypsy travellers were known as "Crusties" in the 80s/90s (*for their unwashed look) or sometimes as New Age Travellers.
Tony M Aug 7, 2013:
@ Asker As far as I am aware, and from a purely European perspective, I'd say that 'itinerant', 'vagrant', 'vagabond', 'NFA', 'homeless', and 'transient' all have negative / pejorative connotations — in some way making a judgement that 'normal' people OUGHT to be sedentary; and note that some of these terms are used in formal contexts in relation to breaking the law etc.
I think these are the reasons that the term 'Travellers' has come into woder acceptance, to denote people who are not 'homeless', but choose to live their life on the road. Note to Gallagy: there is still a great deal of the nomadic existence about the 'gens de voyage' here in France, unlike the sedentarization you describe in Eire or the UK.
Very many of the Travellers in the UK are in no way specifically related to the original Irish Travellers, but have chosen to adopt that name to describe their own lifestyle. There were big issues about Travellers in the UK in the '80s and '90s, with many people claiming they were drug-swilling post-hippy dropouts and not 'proper' gypsies at all. Many of my own family were involved in the Traveller 'movement', if one can call it that.
Roberta Beyer (asker) Aug 7, 2013:
@gallagy2 Thank you for the information. Perhaps you could post "itinerants and other transient people" or some form thereof as an answer, so we could see what other people think of it? I am interested to see the feedback from others.
Yvonne Gallagher Aug 7, 2013:
itinerant is only seen as pejorative by Travellers in Ireland I'd say as most other people wouldn't know that what they used to be called! And of course it's one "l" in US for traveler
"transient" has a Jack Kerouac feel about it in the US, no? Or NFA (no fixed abode) elsewhere? A travelling bum Again, with "people" added it might work better...
Roberta Beyer (asker) Aug 7, 2013:
@gallagy2 Thank you for your input! I was trying to figure out why "nomadic people" sounded better to me than "nomads" and you're right, it's the camel thing! So itinerant can be pejorative, that's too bad. Does "transient" have pejorative connotations as well, in your opinion?
Yvonne Gallagher Aug 7, 2013:
Yes Roberta, you're right. "Travellers"(capital T) are what Irish gypsies now prefer to be called in Ireland and the UK (where they are labelled as "Irish Travellers"). Previously they were known as "itinerants" (by authorities) but they consider that a pejorative word now. So, it might suit your purpose as in (non-capitalised) "transients and other itinerants" perhaps so you are not singling out any ethnic group? Very few of them are on the road full-time now. Most just do a fair or two or go to visit relatives with most Travellers actually "settled" (a bit of an oxymoron, "settled traveller") with loads of bad news stories about evictions off lands recently so do actually have homes to go to, as are most of the Roma I think. Certainly no longer nomads in the traditional way. I also think people have fixed ideas about nomads and camels, but adding PEOPLE definitely better...a difficult one! PERIPATHETIC PEOPLE is a general term that surely can offend no one?
philgoddard Aug 7, 2013:
Yes, I do love it - it's a really special city. Where did you live?
Roberta Beyer (asker) Aug 7, 2013:
@philgoddard You're right, the scenario has issues in a US version of the game. I have brought this up with the client, but it's up to them to decide if they want to rework it. For now, it's just up to me to translate it.

Unrelatedly, I lived in New Orleans for five years and have been trying to move back ever since I left. I hope you love it there!
philgoddard Aug 7, 2013:
Whatever you call them (and I would say Romani, gypsies or transient people), I'm not sure this whole scenario is going to work in a US version of the game. They're much more integrated here, and not a political issue like they are in Europe.
There's a very good summary of the US situation here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma_in_the_United_States
Could you not use some other subculture? I know where I live here in New Orleans, conservatives are always complaining about gutterpunks, who often panhandle and don't always smell too good:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutter_punk
Peter LEGUIE Aug 7, 2013:
Roberta If I am not mistaken, the "gens du voyage" are those travellers with French identity papers (about 250 000 I have read), but not the ones we have (a "permis de circuler"(?) created shortly before the First World War. There are of course other pejorative names for them in France (romano, manouche...). Differences may therefore be related to their geographic origins or legal situation (being French or not).
As regards "travellers" in the US, there may have been times when groups of immigrants who had not yet settled down were given that name, but you know better than I do!
Roberta Beyer (asker) Aug 7, 2013:
What about... What about "itinerants/itinerant groups"? I think in terms of its definition, it is a good match, but I am unaware if it is offensive or has negative connotations.
Roberta Beyer (asker) Aug 7, 2013:
Re: Peter LEGUIE Peter,

Thank you! While "Travellers" would be perfect for a UK audience, I do not think it works for a US audience. And yes, "gypsy" is definitely an offensive term in the US. This doesn't mean people don't use it, of course, but I am not comfortable using it in this context and I am certain the client would not want to use it either.
Roberta Beyer (asker) Aug 7, 2013:
Re: Tony Tony,

Thank you for your input! I am aware that Travellers is used more broadly in the UK, but it does not work in US English. It would just be people who travel. I do think the term originally comes from the the Irish Travellers, but you're right, it is used in UK English exactly as "gens du voyage" is in French.

"Gypsy" is definitely not PC in the US either. I think "Roms" is sometimes used in French to describe people who are not Romani, but possibly out of ignorance rather than actual semantic broadening.

I think "nomadic people" works better than "nomads," for some reason, possibly because it brings to mind a traveling group of people rather than separate (if plural) nomads. It's a bit odd sounding, but it is the best so far, certainly.
Peter LEGUIE Aug 7, 2013:
"Travellers" seems to come up fairly often in what references I found, and some even mention that it is the term they use to describe themselves (in the UK).
Furthermore, I you sure that "gypsies" is offensive?
Tony M Aug 7, 2013:
Travel(l)ers Is used in the UK loosely to refer to ALL nomadic people, and as such, exactly translates the concept of the FR 'gens de voyage'.

If you feel this could not work in the US, then how about 'nomads'? As long as the context makes it clear they are not in the Sahara, the idea of 'nomadic people' in general should be clear enough.
I don't know about US usage, but 'gypsies' is definitely not very PC in the UK; it has been replaced by 'travellers', just as 'gens de voyage' has replaced the pejorative/injurious 'gitan' and 'romanichel' (and the rather more romantic but archaic 'tsigane').

Note that Romanies are indeed a specific racial group ('Roms' in FR), so not applicable in your context.

Proposed translations

+1
1 hr
Selected

itinerants and other transient people

as per discussion

another idea that came to mind

footloose (and fancy-free) people? Or is that too off track (no pun intended!)

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Note added at 1 hr (2013-08-07 21:09:20 GMT)
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or as Roberta suggested herself

nomadic people

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2013-08-07 21:13:38 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Oh sorry Tony, didn't spot you'd suggested nomadic...

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Note added at 4 days (2013-08-12 09:04:09 GMT) Post-grading
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glad to have helped.


Note from asker:
Thank you gallagy2! To give credit where credit is due, Tony M originally suggested nomadic people, and it is indeed an excellent suggestion.
Peer comment(s):
agree Marco Solinas : This is descriptive and non-offensive to my Canadian ears. Perhaps "populations" instead of "people?"
9 mins
thanks Marco. Glad you see no offense! not sure about "population" as it gives me a feeling of more settled lifestyle though I'm sure it could work in some contexts...
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
+4
10 mins

travel(l)ers / travel(l)ing people

Even if the term is less well known in the US, I can't help feeling it is explicit enough for your purposes. If possible, perhaps you could use 'travelling people' the first time it occurs, and 'travellers' thereafter.

After all, the concept of 'time travellers' is familiar enough...
Note from asker:
I have used it so far, sort of as a placeholder, but I just really don't think that, for a US audience, it conveys the same sense of not having a fixed residence that is (as I understand it) conveyed by "gens du voyage." In my opinion, at least, it evokes tourists, more or less. Someone who has a home to go back to, but is currently visiting somewhere else. For example, in the case of "Interdire l'entrée dans les villes pour les gens du voyage", if "gens du voyage" were translated as traveler, an American would read that as saying that people who are visiting the area are not allowed to enter the city. It comes off sounding very strange and isolationist. Am I making any sense?
While capitalizing the word would certainly make it clear that it has some other meaning than the normal use of the word "traveler" (basically a tourist), I still think a US audience, playing a video game and coming across that term, would not understand its intended meaning. If capitalized, the person might think, "Okay, it means something specific" but nomadic peoples/Romani/gypsies/etc would not come to mind. In fact, as Tony pointed out with the time traveler mention, it almost has a sci-fi feel to it, like Travelers from another planet or time. In my experience, without an explicit explanation, an American would be unlikely to make the connection between the word traveler and the concept of nomads/itinerants/transient people, etc. Possibly simply because, as mentioned by philgoddard, the issue is not as prevalent in the US. It just wouldn't come to mind. Of course, it is possible that another American might completely disagree with me. I would be interested in hearing from other native US English speakers. I absolutely agree that "travellers" is the best translation for UK English.
Peer comment(s):
agree JaneD : That's what I used to call myself when I was one! Also see reference for US usage of the term.
17 mins
Thanks, Jane! I think the additional use of 'travelling people' would make it clear enough.
agree Bertrand Leduc
19 mins
Merci, Bertrand !
agree Michele Fauble : With a capital T, as in the Wikipedia article.
32 mins
Merci, Michele ! Well, yes, that would certainly avoid some of the pitfalls Roberta has outlined...
neutral philgoddard : I don't think Americans will understand this.
1 hr
Fair enough, Phil, though from her personal experience, JaneD seems to disagree. And Cyril also seems to have turned up a number of US references.
agree reliable
1 day 1 hr
Thanks, R!
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+1
18 mins

"Roma and Travellers"

http://www.coe.int/t/dg3/romatravellers/default_EN.asp?

Council of Europe translation of "gens de voyage"
While Travellers alone might not be correctly understood in US English, the phrase "Roma and Travellers" would tag the travellers as part of a specific concept.
Requires both words, not just travellers.

As US English speaker, I would avoid nomadic or vagrant or vagabond for the reasons you have already commented upon.

See the Council of Europe document in both FR and EN: it is quite helpful I think.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 19 minutes (2013-08-07 19:41:58 GMT)
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There is no purely US term since it refers to a European situation, as you know.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 20 minutes (2013-08-07 19:43:01 GMT)
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From above reference:
"Working with Roma to improve their own lives

There are ten to twelve million Roma and Travellers in Europe spread across practically all the Council of Europe's member countries. The Council of Europe's main objective is to encourage its members to take a comprehensive approach to Roma issues. This involves three main priorities - protecting minorities, combating racism, anti-gypsyism and intolerance and preventing social exclusion. One of the fundamental principles guiding this approach is participation of the communities concerned, through Roma and Travellers representatives and associations. Since 1995, the Committee of Experts on Roma and Travellers (MG-S-ROM) has been tasked with advising member states and encouraging international authorities to take action where needed. Its role complements that of the Secretary General's Co-ordinator of Activities concerning Roma, responsible for promoting co-operation with other relevant international organisations and developing working relations with Roma and Travellers issues organisations. For more information, please download the leaflet of the Roma and Travellers Division (PDF) or visit the News page."
Note from asker:
Thank you Michael. It's true, there is no US term that exactly corresponds this European situation. "Roma and Travellers" seems like a possible solution, but is there a reason you have used the double l? I do think "nomad/nomadic people" has a significantly less negative connotation than "vagrant/vagabond". I appreciate your input... this is a challenging one for a US audience! Is it possible we simply do not discuss the "gens du voyage" as much as Europeans??
Peer comment(s):
agree Yolanda Broad
4 days
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+1
35 mins

Romani

I think "Romani" works just fine here. Somewhat the translation of "Tsigane" which is another name for "gens du voyage". I have heard that term plenty in US TV shows and other online articles and it does not strike me as an odd term in the US.

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Note added at 59 mins (2013-08-07 20:22:12 GMT)
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I think you may be confused about the term "gens du voyage". In my book, it definitely has an ethnic group connotation.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gens_du_voyage

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2013-08-07 20:25:17 GMT)
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In France, "gens du voyage" and "tsiganes" are merely the politically correct terms, as opposed to "gitans" and "manouches".

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Note added at 1 hr (2013-08-07 21:07:58 GMT)
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Well, some of them refuse the term "roms" because they think it is pejorative. As for the faithful translation, while a French "tsigane" might not be pleased to be called such, there is no telling if "romani" is a term which is offensive to some of the "traveling people". What people find offensive in one language may very well be accepted in another, and vice versa.
Reference:

http://www.wordreference.com/fren/Tsigane

http://juliecantrell.wordpress.com/2012/02/05/about-the-roma-interview-with-romani-american-traveler/

Note from asker:
Thanks Kevin! Romani is definitely used in the US, but it does refer to a specific ethnic group, which "gens du voyage" does not. I am looking for something that could encompass the Romani, but also any people (regardless of racial origin) who travel from place to place and do not have a fixed residence.
"Gens du voyage" does generally refer to several certain ethnic groups, but in the same Wikipedia article you have posted (whether or not Wikipedia is a reliable source is a debate for another day), it is noted that some of the groups referred to as gens du voyage "refusent, en partie, l’appellation de Roms". As for being politically correct, yes, it is the politically correct term in France, meaning a translation of it as something NOT politically correct would not be a faithful translation of the source.
Peer comment(s):
agree Yolanda Broad : Or simply "Roma" - this is what appears most often in the news in the US.
1 day 22 hrs
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3 hrs

traveller communities/community

I thought 'traveller communities' might fit here as the 'community' part avoids any confusion with tourists and student travellers.
I also like Tony M's suggestion of travelling people, but then again my background is Irish/English and I don't know how appropriate it is for American English.
Reference:

http://www.haringey.gov.uk/brief_history_and_background_to_traveller_gypsy_and_roma_communities.pdf

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/dale-farm-the-battle-to-save-britainrsquos-biggest-traveller-community-2196331.html

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6 hrs

roaders

An interesting alternative, a good localization term in this context, imo

"Roaders or Roadies: Native born Americans who have led a traveling life similar to that of the Gypsies and Travelers, but who were not originally descended from those groups"
http://www.gypsyloresociety.org/additional-resources/gypsy-a...
Peer comment(s):
neutral Yolanda Broad : Technically right, but much more frequently used in the context of people who hang out with rock stars as they travel around. Roadies would be right, too, but it looks like "roaders" gets used more for those hangers-on than for the Roma.
1 day 16 hrs
Wouldn't those be 'roadies'?
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12 hrs

migrants

Just another suggestion- as they are on the move too, and is general: migration takes place for all sorts of reasons and in every epoch
Peer comment(s):
neutral Tony M : Not really suitable here, as it usually means people who are migrating FROM one specific place TO another specific place, rather than just people whose lifestyle is to wander around from place to place; hence why 'nomadic' is more appropriate.
27 mins
yes, true, as migrants can settle down, but then so do others, like nomads perhaps
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18 hrs

vagrants

if you want US English then you could try this. Some words are just not translatable into other languages cos the two cultures do not have the same cultural references.
Reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagrancy_%28people%29#

Note from asker:
I think it's true that in terms of its definition, "vagrant" or "vagabond" is the most accurate. Unfortunately, as Tony mentioned, I think the negative connotations are very strong and unsuitable for this translation. Thank you!!
Peer comment(s):
neutral Tony M : I think this is just too judgemental/non-PC; and it suggests they are all potentially breaking the law!
17 mins
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+2
6 hrs

gypsies

I disagree about 'gypsy' being an offensive term by itself, and I think it's the right term to use here, as in 'Gypsy celebration'.
It might be a case of "racism is in the eye of the beholder" :)

Are these references offensive/derogatory in any way?

"The Gypsy lore society"
"Gypsy and Traveler Culture in America"
http://www.gypsyloresociety.org/additional-resources/gypsy-a...

"Gypsy americans "
http://www.everyculture.com/multi/Du-Ha/Gypsy-Americans.html

"Romani people, commonly known as Gypsies, have been in the Americas since 1498,"
http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/pxrfh

"She is also Romani, or Roma, part of an ethnic group often referred to as Gypsies."
http://www.voanews.com/content/for-roma-life-in-us-has-chall...

"'Gipsy/gipsy' is a common word used to indicate Romani people, Tinkers and Travellers. It may or may not be considered to carry pejorative connotations by those so described,[21][22][23] and use of the word "Gipsy" in English is so pervasive (and is a legal term under English law—see below) that many Romani organizations use it in their own organizational names."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gipsy_(term)#Gypsy_and_Gipsy

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Note added at 2 days9 hrs (2013-08-10 05:07:29 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

'Gypsy travellers' :)
Peer comment(s):
agree Peter LEGUIE : Yes, I cannot either see any offence in using the word "gypsy".
5 hrs
Thank you Peter
agree rkillings : *lowercase* for the well-established 2nd meaning in Webster's Unabridged: "one resembling a Gypsy especially in appearance, manners, or **mode of life**" [note capitalization of "Gypsy"]. Also consider "gypsy cab" and similar expressions.
2 days 15 hrs
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Reference comments

29 mins
Reference:

Use of "traveler" in US text

...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 39 mins (2013-08-07 20:01:47 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Good question. I'm afraid at the time I didn't meet any Americans, so I don't know what their reaction would have been!
Reference:

http://www.gypsyloresociety.org/additional-resources/gypsy-and-traveler-culture-in-america

Note from asker:
Thank you JaneD! Your first-hand experience lends a lot of credence to this use of the word. In your experience, if you referred to yourself as a "traveler" to an American, did they understand what you meant or did you have to explain? The reference is very helpful, although it is clearly intended for people within the group, and I wonder if that usage would be as clear to those not within the group.
Peer comments on this reference comment:
neutral writeaway : question (which is why the neutral): is the term gypsies totally out of the question?
2 hrs
In my experience only people who aren't what one might call gypsies would use the term. So perhaps that's exactly what's needed here?
neutral B D Finch : Your reference is cut off (as frequently happens on KudoZ) and so doen't work. Re writeaway's comment, Roma don't call themselves "gypsies" and only some travellers are Roma.
14 hrs
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41 mins
Reference:

Travellers

"They live mostly in Ireland as well as having large numbers in the United Kingdom and in the United States.[3] Around 10,000 Travellers in the United States, with around 2,500 Travellers living in a place called Murphy Village, South Carolina[citation needed], are descendants of Travellers who left Ireland, mostly during the period between 1845 and 1860 during the Great Famine."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Travellers
Note from asker:
Thank you Michele. This term does refer to a specific ethnic group, and "gens du voyage" does not, so it is not really the appropriate translation.
Or rather, even if it can be said that it has ethnic connotations "gens du voyage" specifically does not refer to the Irish Travellers.
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